Joss Whedon's dialogue style: 35 minutes of back and forth snark, a monologue from a character giving an empty lecture to another character while they're having a hard time, back to snarky dialogue but they smile at each other a little bit to show resolution and growth

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Firefly was Cowboy Bebop with everything interesting removed.

@breakfastgolem it might've been novelty fun if you've never seen the space western setting before but Bebop did it so well and Firefly was just whedon in space

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts For me it's the opposite, loved Firefly but didn't get the appeal of Cowboy Bebop at all.

@nutomic idk what to say to that tbh but one of the shows utilized the style and setting really well and the other one could've just been an NYC cop show and people wouldn't have cared

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts you mean firefly could have been a cop show? Its literally about outlaws who steal things for a living. In fact, its what I would say about bebop. I also really loved the characters in firefly. Guess we just have different opinions here.

And to be clear I'm not defending whedon, he's a piece of shit. I also didn't like any of his other shows/movies, except firefly and cabin in the woods.

@nutomic i am saying that Firefly is exactly as deep and engaging as CSI or NCIS or any of those shows, and not a well-written show, and also it's ok lol it's ok to disagree with me

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts haha I'm high and kind of feel like I have to convince you. But that would be too much effort :D

@nutomic you are fighting over a decade of pent up dislike for the show, it would be a monumental task. but enjoy the weed! what kind u smoking?

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts not that much, I just watched firefly like 5 years ago, and bebop sometime later. Lol thanks, no idea about the type, can never remember any of that (or tell much of a difference).

@nutomic i am going to smoke some later lol. Sativa so it's the social kind instead of the sleepy kind. Some people don't experience a difference of effects tho

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts yeah I don't experience that. But for me it feels different if I smoke alone at home, or when I smoke with friends.

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts Jesus Christ, that's a hot take.

I can't refute it yet, let me keep thinking. 😂

Outlaw Star was also a much better Space Western than firefly. Firefly was boring. Give anime the credit it deserves for imaginative futures

sorry if there are lots of browncoats on here but i've been carrying this shit around since 2006

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts i remember watching it 10 years ago and being like, that’s it? Alright I guess. It definitely doesn’t warrant the fanatic following it has to this day

@sweetmercury the thing about firefly to me is that it kinda wastes the setting and genre bc it could EASILY be like a NYC cop show or w/e with a few dialogue and scene changes. I think it was ppls first exposure to cool sci-fi TV, or at least their first in a long time, but it's not good to me, it's a standard 2005 era TV show

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts To me it's one of those shows that would have been pretty amazing to see in like 1997-98. By the time it was made, it was like...OK.

There were some funny and interesting parts, and I liked the Mal and Zoe dynamic. But it still had this weird Whedon sexism that got on my nerves. And it definitely squandered the scifi element.
@sweetmercury

@erosdiscordia @Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts yeah considering what we know about Joss a lot of his stuff in hindsite is :yikes:

@sweetmercury @erosdiscordia u didn't even need hindsite, society collectively just had bad politics in the 90's and 00's.

He dove headfirst into the whole "LGBT characters must have a death on-screen to be emotional fodder for straights" trope all the time even back on buffy

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts @erosdiscordia yeah that’s something I wouldn’t have even considered back then. I only watched Buffy on netflix a year or so ago and I was like, “I think all these characters are just Joss’s pretend girlfriends?”

@sweetmercury @erosdiscordia yeah that's the other thing, writing women to be your girlfriend is not writing women well, even if the gf u want is a manic pixie or a badass or w/e. Aaron Sorkin has that problem too

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts @sweetmercury

Some male writers definitely prove the idea that you can know women well, and still misuse them.

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts I also hated how, when male characters did something cool, it was "cool dude!"

And when female characters popped off or did something cool, it was "Joss Whedon is amazing". Even when the female characters were loved, some tribute always had to be paid to a guy.
@sweetmercury

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts plus he was coming off of Buffy which was this phenomenon for lot of people, and the early cancellation gave it this legend status.

@sweetmercury I was never into Buffy, but it clearly filled a gap in TV right then for a lot of people (especially queer kids and nerdy girls). I just wish the passion for it had translated into more shows centering cool young women doing interesting SFF stuff. Maybe even, ya know, BY young cool women artists.

Instead it seemed to degenerate into what Los complained about -- bro feminism and mindless "snarky" dialogue. And queer-baiting.
@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts

@erosdiscordia @sweetmercury buddy, have i got some news for you. " more shows centering cool young women doing interesting SFF stuff. Maybe even, ya know, BY young cool women artists."? that happened in the 90's. In anime.

@erosdiscordia @sweetmercury Sailor Moon. Utena. Cardcaptor Sakura. it's all fuckin there. Female empowerment. LGBTQ complex representations with happy endings. compelling and unique storylines? all there

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts Proving your original point that anime kicks Joss Whedon's ass.
It's like he wanted to make live-action anime adaptations, but couldn't get over himself enough to do it.
@sweetmercury

@erosdiscordia @sweetmercury Lots of great western shit from the past 20 years has been lifted from anime actually altho tbf anime lifts western shit a lot too, Bebop was basically Watanabe copying a lot of his fav movies

@erosdiscordia @Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts @sweetmercury *sighs* time to bring out the quote again.

ALL THE GOOD IDEAS HAVE TAKEN BY THE TWILIGHT ZONE, ANIME, AND CHARLIE KAUFMAN

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts @erosdiscordia @sweetmercury and now you've ruined it with kanye west's worst album thanks a lot dickweed 😠

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts Definitely! And I think that's where a lot of cool people headed to get their entertainment. I was more thinking of like network tv.
@sweetmercury

@sweetmercury @Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts my reaction to it pretty much. there's some clever dialogue here and there but it doesn't have much else to offer

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts i dont necessarily agree with this but i appreciate the passionate dismissal

@Los_Ingobernables_De_Jorts Ouch, that hurts.

Fwiw, I love both shows. Bebop definitely does more with the setting (that deep dive into the underground mall for a VCR, gorgeous!) But I feel that is also about the freedoms of animation vs the constrictions of live action stuff.

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